Talk:Saltwater crocodile/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Bite force

User WelcometoJurassicPark, Yes, I've seen the table but Erickson et al. (2012) never called that measurement a record, calling it so when the reference doesn't is original research and adding the original reference to that "old record" to support the statement makes it a case of WP:SYN, because not only Erickson et al. (2003) doesn't acknowledge Erickson et al. (2012) (duh) it doesn't even claim that 9,452N is a record and even if they did, it wasn't the record previous to 2012 because Erickson et al. (2004) measured an American alligator biting at 13,172N. Also why did you feel the need to bring back that unreferenced text about them crushing bovid skulls? or the estimated biteforce for an individual of hypothetical dimensions?. Mike.BRZ (talk) 22:27, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

In jamaica

There are no salt water crocodiles in jamaica and there are only a few alligators in zoo's that is, the only wild reptile are crocodile. V.cross (talk) 01:41, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Exponential growth

It is infeasible for animal mass to be related to length exponentially, despite the source's claim. The alligator's volume will be roughly cubic, with a multiplier thrown in for bulking up (but that will still be a cubic). If the mass were truly exponential, then the density of the animal would need to similarly increase exponentially, which it patently does not do, as muscle and fat have a roughly constant density regardless of an animal's size (there's just more of it!)

I've put in some of the male's estimated lengths and corresponding masses into an Excel model, and an exponential best fit would estimate a 6m crocodile to weigh 3.7 tonnes (considerably more than the 1 tonne given). On the other hand, a cubic best fit gives a very close estimate with no significant residuals. I have this data in Excel, but I am a newbie, so I'm not sure how to display these graphs here for others' perusal. If some one could quickly help me, I'll gladly share these.MrHugs (talk) 12:51, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

It's just sloppy wording - people will say "exponential" for both Y=X^A and Y=A^X, but in this case it's the former. I dug up a reference; crocs are pretty much isometric, so mass is roughly proportional to length cubed. Another source of confusion is that their growth is truly exponential, but in the form of length = a * (1 - e^(b*t)), so that they grow more slowly as they get older. I've fixed the sentence and used a better reference. HCA (talk) 16:27, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Size again...

@BhagyaMani and Manwë986: - Seems like the size issues have been argued into the ground multiple times already (see Talk:Saltwater_crocodile#So_much_about_the_size. and following, above), and I hope we don't need to roll up the entire issue again. Having said that, which of the sources currently used in the size section does make any clear statement about "largest crocodilian" or "largest reptile"? The most detailed source [1] is actually rather equivocative on the issue, basically concluding that we can't tell. I do agree that we do not need or want random fourth-hand pop science aggregators inserted into the lede to make any related points - summarize material from the body, or leave it out.

Manwë986, before you get to bluster about "admin involvement", you actually have to keep to the rules. If your previous raps on the knuckles have not taught you to, I'd suggest you get acquainted with WP:BRD right quick. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 13:30, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Elmidae. I do certainly not intend to roll this issue up again. But only want to make sure that a reliable source is referenced, and not as you so nicely put it, a 'random fourth-hand pop science aggregator'. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 13:59, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Are you saying that we ignore the open paragraph, just because the size section already contain the largest crocodilian or largest reptile? What's wrong with adding that in the open paragraph? If you think it's wrong, then why don't you do the same thing to the pages of the largest species, like ostriches? --Manwë986 (talk) 14:12, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

We can absolutely put it into the lede if it is stated and referenced in the body; and it is stated in the body. However, as noted, I can't see which of the sources cited there actually makes that statement. We have Although it is the largest overall living crocodilian and reptile,[...], but the reference for that sentence is the one I linked above, and does NOT say so. So from which of the multiply fought-over sources in that section does that assertion come from? --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:21, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I only added in largest reptile, as well as reference from oceana, in the open paragraph. --Manwë986 (talk) 14:30, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

• Manwë986, how is it that time after time you completely miss the point? You were pointed to WP:RS and WP:BRD (which really means stop fighting and take it to the talk page, since others don't agree with you), but this kind of obsessive reverting, and the addition of crap sources (yes), makes me wonder about WP:CIR. Personally I don't care about "largest" or "one of the largest", I care about good sources and about editors keeping to the rules. You are not making friends by acting this way. Drmies (talk) 00:52, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Who are you may I ask? An admin? I join Wikipedia not to make friends, but to provide truths and facts. And I do not know them face-to-face. And there are pages of largest species don't have reference of reliable sources in the open paragraph to prove that they are the largest species, like tiger. And the edits I added for saltwater crocodile are facts. Seriously, is this Wikipedia too demanding? I'm beginning to wonder if other people were right about saying that the Wikipedia is untrustworthy? --Manwë986 (talk) 01:12, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

This is deplorable that you missed the point again!! ALL we WANT is that you REFer to RELIABLE SOURCES and STOP adding 2nd to 4th hand statements from websites. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:25, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

• Manwë986, that's about enough now. If you add information, YOU have to provide the reliable source to back it up; YOU, and no one else. If you want that in more explicit form, read the policy at WP:BURDEN. Provide a source, or stay away. Or add it anyway and get yourself reported for disruptive editing. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 01:52, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

I already did provide sources the last time, but what happened in the end. If you are so smart, search the reliable sources by yourself, you are good at that. I am inexperienced in that area. And don't threaten me with that "YOU, and no one else". You are not an admin, are you? The list of largest reptiles page also stated so, as well as size section of saltwater crocodile page. Look at them. The opening paragraph of tiger's page doesn't have reliable sources to state that it's the largest cat. Search that too. Always about reliable sources. Are there anything else better than these, seriously? Here, these are the following sources: https://projectorangutan.com/salt-water-crocodile/, https://marinebio.org/species/saltwater-crocodiles/crocodylus-porosus/, https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/7806139/Crocodiles-surf-ocean-currents.html, https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-heaviest-living-reptiles-in-the-world.html. See if they are reliable or not.--Manwë986 (talk) 02:10, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Good grief, all that flailing and complaining - just go and find a good source (and no I don't have to be an admin to tell you to abide by our policies). You know what, if it will put a bung into this barrel of fun, I'll just do the work for you. - Here, use this: Britton, A. R.; Whitaker, R.; Whitaker, N. (2012). "Here be a dragon: exceptional size in a saltwater crocodile (Crocodylus porosus) from the Philippines" (PDF). Herpetological Review. 43 (4): 541–546. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 16:20, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

...which is even already used as a source in the article, so just use <ref name="Britton et al. 2012"/>. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 16:25, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Whitaker & Whitaker 2008 list an Orinoco crocodile of 6.78 m. So imo, saltwater crocodile is 'among the largest crocodiles' is correct. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 18:18, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Well, there is a distinction between largest by mass and largest by length. Britton 2012 does attest the top position of C. porosus for the former. So it may have to be "heaviest" instead of largest. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 18:34, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

OK dragged here from RS, as I see it at least one RS says it is the largest. Are there any other reptiles that contest the record (in fact what does Guinness say)?Slatersteven (talk) 16:14, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

As noted, "largest" can mean either heaviest or longest. The former seems fine and readily referenced, the latter not so much (even leaving aside various constrictors, there are other crocodilians that can be longer). Thus, would need to be qualified. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 17:14, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Why? I can think of plenty of examples on "unqualified" largest. Again, what of living reptile is classed as largest? For us to need a qualification here there has to be RS that contest the idea this creature is not the largest, wither by saying "it is not the largest" or by claiming another living reptile is the largest.Slatersteven (talk) 18:06, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Oh, FFS. I am somewhat over this obsession with which predator is the largest, longest, most apex, or whatever. Feel free to hash it out with Manwë986; as long as there's a RS behind the statement, I don't really care. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 19:59, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Ok now, here's the link: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/7806139/Crocodiles-surf-ocean-currents.html. The admin Drmies and the Wikipedia talk: Reliable sources confirmed that it is reliable source which supports that the saltwater crocodile is the largest living reptile. --Manwë986 (talk) 20:00, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

I revised it so to also reflect that there is some doubt. Your ref is a newspaper, and the journalist did certainly NOT measure any crocs himself to prove his claim. BTW: the info about saltwater crocs using ocean currents is already part of this page, but ref'ed by the original peer-reviewed article. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:54, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Well, here's other three sources that contain the length and weight: https://projectorangutan.com/salt-water-crocodile/, https://marinebio.org/species/saltwater-crocodiles/crocodylus-porosus/, https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/7806139/Crocodiles-surf-ocean-currents.html, https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-heaviest-living-reptiles-in-the-world.html.

See which one of them is reliable source.--Manwë986 (talk) 09:43, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

After all this lengthy discussion about this issue, I strongly recommend to rely on sources written by people who have been working with crocs and published in peer-reviewed journals. No website blogger or newspaper journalist meets these criteria as well as Whitaker & Whitaker (2008), who either personally measured croc skulls or requested their colleagues in natural history museums worldwide to do so. See the table in this publication, clearly listing 3 museums that hold skulls of false gharial and gharial that are larger than of saltwater crocodile, indicating that these specimens were larger than saltwater crocodiles in international collections. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 14:15, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

So what if they are larger skulls? The largest organisms are decided by total length and weight, not by certain body parts. --Manwë986 (talk) 18:03, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Skull size is an indicator for estimating total size. Do you know anybody else who measured as many crocs as the Whitakers did and published results that were reviewed by peers? If so, then list this article here. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 07:00, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Distribution section is NOT CORRECT

The distribution section was recently changed to have a large amount of incorrect information. First and foremost, there is no "small reintroduced" saltwater crocodile population in Vietnam. The CSG article stating this is incorrect. I have spoken with the author of this article and he has confirmed that the information is incorrect. The saltwater crocodile is EXTINCT in the wild in Vietnam. There are a small number IN CAPTIVITY in an enclosure in the Can Gio Biosphere and two individuals at the Siagon Zoo, there are no wild saltwater crocodiles left in Vietnam. In Thailand the saltwater crocodile was once present in coastal areas throughout the country, not just in Phang Nga. The species is likely extinct in Thailand, although it is possible there are very small numbers in Ranong or in Narathiwat near the borders with Myanmar and Malaysia, respectively. The mention of saltwater crocodiles currently being currently present in the Subarnarekha and Budhabalanga Rivers of Orissa is also incorrect- in Orissa the saltwater crocodile is currently restricted to Bhitarkanika National Park...there are NO populations outside of this general area, and definitely not as far north as the Subarnarekha River. They were once present throughout the entire eastern coast of India, but were eliminated from most areas by World War II. The ONLY saltwater crocodile populations currently present on mainland India are found in Bhitarkanika National Park in Orissa and the Sundarbans in West Bengal. Period. For East Nusa Tenggara there is another factual error- thus far there is no information to suggest that the saltwater crocodile is still present on Alor Island (beyond the occasional itinerant). They ARE present throughout much of the remainder of East Nusa Tenggara, but there is no information available from Alor. There really needs to be some fact checking before these edits are allowed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cporosus1 (talk • contribs) 08:33, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 May 2020

The following changes need to be made to the Distribution section-

1.) The saltwater crocodile is extinct in Vietnam, there is no "small, reintroduced population". 
2.) The saltwater crocodile is extinct in the Subarnarekha and Budhabalanga Rivers. The only saltwater crocodile population remaining in Orissa is found in Bhitarkanika National Park and the immediate surrounding waterways. In fact, the only other saltwater crocodile population in all of mainland India is found in the Sundarbans of West Bengal.
3.) There is currently no known population of saltwater crocodiles on Alor Island in East Nusa Tenggara. An itinerant crocodile was captured there in the last decade and populations are found on some neighboring islands, but there is no information to suggest the species isn't extinct on Alor.

Source: http://crocodilian.com/cnhc/cst_cpor_dh_map.htm Cporosus1 (talk) 08:44, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I checked cited sources in text and revised accordingly. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 09:22, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 August 2020

Could you link the one appearance of Hystrix indica? 2601:5C6:8081:35C0:91CE:B2E3:3191:9DE0 (talk) 12:44, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Link added – Thjarkur (talk) 12:54, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

The biggest crocodile Krys

The biggest so far crocodile was shot by the famous Polish professional crocodile hunter Krystyna Pawlowska in 1957. He was killed in Norman River in Queensland, Australia. It is 8.63 m long and the animal ended up in the Guinness Book of Records. The crocodile was nicknamed Krys after Krystyna Pawlowska’s name. The sculpture - exactly the same size as Krys, was made in Townsville and transported to the town Normanton by truck. It was unveiled in 1996 in the presence of Krystyna Pawlowska and her husband Ron. Krys - The Savannah King — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.192.40.55 (talk) 23:09, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Scientific names

@BhagyaMani: Regarding your revert: The inclusion of scientific names is inconsistent within the article itself and not consistent with the practice at other predators, e.g. Tiger#Hunting and diet, Lion#Hunting and diet, and American black bear#Dietary habits. It is distracting (Do you really think it's necessary to identify humans as Homo sapiens?) and makes the section more difficult to read. Rublov (talk) 12:14, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree with @Rublov: I saw their recent edit removing the scientific names, and I liked it. I was disappointed to see that @BhagyaMani: reverted it. All those scientific names are unnecessary and just make the article bloated. If a reader really wanted to know them, links are provided for all of the species. Cougroyalty (talk) 16:10, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Saltwater crocodiles have never ranged as far as Fiji.

RE: "individual saltwater crocodiles appeared occasionally in areas far away from their general range, up to Fiji.[89]" While you may have found a reference to back-up this claim, it is wrong. The reference you cite [89] contains no research or evidence but merely cites a further reference. Reference 89 is titled "Estuarine crocodiles ride surface currents to facilitate long‐distance travel" (2010) by Campbell, Watts, Sullivan, Read, Choukroun, Irwin, & Franklin. (Irwin being the late famous Steve Irwin) The only mention of Fiji in this reference was sourced from "Webb & Manolis 1989" which was basically a glossy coffee-table book titled "Crocodiles of Australia" published by Reed Books, Sydney, AustraliaENSOsurfer (talk) 15:46, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

See the ref I just added with locations + dates. – BhagyaMani (talk) 15:53, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 August 2022

hahahaha i got in 2001:8003:34C5:F300:F8FC:B156:EA48:9E21 (talk) 06:21, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EnIRtpf09b^{chat with me} 06:26, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2022

The most common spelling of behaviour in this article is behaviour, however, the heading is spelt "behavior" and there is one other occurrence. As the animal is not present in the US, the spelling behavior is also more inappropriate for that reason. 125.237.43.40 (talk) 08:46, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Quite right. I have fixed the incorrect spellings. HiLo48 (talk) 09:27, 24 November 2022 (UTC)